Season 3 (Input)

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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby Krazyguy75 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:06 am

Oh thought of one more things: Temporary spawnpoints would be awesome (like a battle camp, which lasts for X lives worth of respawns), so that you can get back into the action quickly and things feel more like a war.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby Sheez » Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:35 pm

cgeyl wrote:Generally I think we should desperately avoid making the game's mechanics only properly accessible to either well organised groups who schedule their play times, or ruling councils.


This is a big one for me. I know minecraft is a game that rewards grinding, and to some extent I expect that, but what I don't want is for the average player to feel left out.

That said, I do think that pushing you to require other people in order to get the best/great things is fine and correct. You can do the solo thing, but if you decide to do so there needs to be an acceptance that you're going to have to make up for that lack of other people. Dependence on others for skills/resources is how nation bonds (positive or negative) form, and it' generally a good thing for us to have.

Krazyguy75 wrote:Oh thought of one more things: Temporary spawnpoints would be awesome (like a battle camp, which lasts for X lives worth of respawns), so that you can get back into the action quickly and things feel more like a war.


That's similar to what we have planned. Running from your spawn to get back into the fight is less fun than being there.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby Sheez » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:15 pm

We don't want to reward people for playing hermits. That's not to say that hermits will be punished, but there are perks to being an active member of society. Sure, you can RP the town drunk or the Ranger that just happens to stop in town every now and then but you are going to be better off under a town's umbrella rather than being a mountain man who rarely speaks to anyone and won't associate. To expect more is an exercise in futility.

As for the comments on expanding combat; we are talking about the stuff primarily listed as official upcoming features of minecraft. It allows us to make weapons that are not swords be useful. It will also allow for some diversity that won't break the game.

We would like to have nation perks and those may or may not apply in combat but it won't be like Atherys or Herocraft. It's not going to be classes that hugely change the game. Just perks. Accessible perks. Specializations are something we looked at to make people have an opportunity to be better at stuff, but that is mostly for quality of life stuff. No one loses their basic minecraft abilities. Some people might just be more efficient farmers/miners/etc. There might be a bit of grind assuming those make it in, but it will offset the long game grind that is inherent in minecraft by doing things you would normally be doing.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby gigyas6 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:06 am

cgeyl wrote:I peronally don't want the combat mechanisms too different from standard survival, too many layers of complexity just make combat a bit tedious and clusterfucky. It shoud also be accessible to newer players since I hated that atherys thing where you had to grind like fuck to be any use in combat.


In real life, many medieval foot soldiers were trained with a pointed polearm - most commonly a spear, but sometimes a pike or other similar weapon - and/or a mace and shield. These types of weapons are easily produced, and take little time to train with in order to be extremely efficient weapons. A spear is mostly just sticking the pointing edge forward, and a mace can be swung without much care. There isn't much mastery to these types of weapons due to the simplistic designs, but their ease of use allows even a novice a great degree of potency.
Edged weapons, particularly arming swords, require high knowledge of the weapon itself before it's even taken to train. You can't just swing it wildly because of edge connection points, they require more maintenance than a blunt or even pointed weapon, and you need to know more than just a handful of moves with it. If you get use to only a handful of swings with an arming sword, it becomes extremely obvious what you're doing. Much more so, training with weapon in hand takes time to get use to the muscle memory of it, and the weight distribution of the weapon (which generally focuses more towards the center of the weapon rather than the striking area). However, when properly trained, an arming sword gives much more control over the movements and fight than a spear or a mace, and if you show dedication to go out of your way and learn different techniques, it can show a wide range of uses on the battlefield. An arming sword can be extremely efficient at disarming, piercing armor, crippling injuries, and so on. Many soldiers trained with a sword won't learn all of these techniques, but even having a handful allows a good tool set.

You can probably see what I'm getting at here. I agree with you - I think that being expected to grind just to be good is a bad thing. But I'd like to see a concept of something similar here - obviously not an exact simulation, but the concept of easy to learn weapons that are rewarding and efficient sat along side difficult to learn weapons that are powerful and potentially versatile, but punish you for making small mistakes. Not something to be measured by an EXP system or whatever, but something properly dependent on the player. This way, a player who can't dedicate as much time can use a more "spear-like" weapon and be just as efficient as a someone using a "sword-like" weapon, only with less mastery ability and less uses. Furthermore, this can set up things like training grounds and barracks that players put a lot of time into building to actually have a use in training soldiers that don't know the weapons.
As it stands, Minecraft combat - even with upcoming details in the Combat Update - is very simplistic, and most fights are determined arbitrarily. I think there's a decent degree of skill involved with simple duels, but battlefield skirmishes are much more basic - have more dudes than them with better gear than them.
Also I'm a weapon nut. Variety of weapons outside of "It's a sword... But it's ON FIRE!" is something I'm into.

Additionally, outside of siege engineers (and even then), most soldiers will find themselves having the same roles and purposes on the battlefield. I think that this, on a player by player basis, can make players generally feel disinterested in the notion of squad-based PvP (as, again, this is typically determined by numbers and equipment). I don't think any sort of meta or specific roles should be enforced, but at least providing different aspects to combat that can't all be done at the same time due to a player's knowledge and not "levels" or arbitration would help with this.
People get excited about working together in a city because each person can provide specialization or knowledge in something not everyone knows. Not everyone knows how to run redstone (and even then, not all redstone engineers specialize in the same branches). Not everyone knows how to build homes. Not everyone knows how to build fortifications, or treasuries, or scenery. Limitations apply here not because "you have x levels in redstone building" but because these things require practice on the player's behalf, and time can't always be spent on all these things. In combat, everyone can currently do everything there is to do in combat (again, outside of siege engineers, but with notable exceptions within that). There's no reason not to carry a bow, a sword, and a pick/shovel. There's no reason not to carry potions. Everyone can do all the things there is to do and don't have anything that they can really specialize in. Rather than having a system that just removes a sword from your inventory because you have a bow, I'd much rather see players experiencing that same sort of diversity and expertise through building also found in PvP.



(Sorry for wall of text, I did not set out to write a dissertation when I started my reply.)
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby Krazyguy75 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:08 am

Sorry, but I disagree. I think that minecraft itself is the important part. If we wanted to play Chivalry: Medieval Warfare, we'd be running a Chivalry server.

I think the less changes the better, whether to combat, building, etc. Making the combat more advanced is actually a deterrence to new players, and even returning old players. There are people that like minecraft PvP for its simplicity.

If you are going to get into combat roles, I think that should be part of the perk system. I think that you should be getting very few perks, but those perks help you decide how the battle goes.

For example:
A travel domain perk that teleports a person to you: You are now the ambusher of the squad.
A war domain perk that sets a temporary spawn point: You are now the quartermaster
A fire perk that shoots a fireball that damages buildings: You are now the siege expert.
A temporary damage reduction perk from earth: You now are the tank.
A life perk that heals: You are now the healer.
etc.

So on. If we make people unable to easily get more than 1 perk, roles naturally form. That's a good integration of a perk system into combat.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby gigyas6 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:34 am

Krazyguy75 wrote:Sorry, but I disagree. I think that minecraft itself is the important part. If we wanted to play Chivalry: Medieval Warfare, we'd be running a Chivalry server.


I literally said in my post I don't expect nor want to see a perfect simulation of this - rather, I'd like to see variation in weapons that offer depth without complexity - much in the same vain as building.


Krazyguy75 wrote:I think the less changes the better, whether to combat, building, etc. Making the combat more advanced is actually a deterrence to new players, and even returning old players. There are people that like minecraft PvP for its simplicity.


You say this but then immediately talk about adding changes to inherent core parts of how battles work. I don't want to see something that changes what Mineraft PvP already does - I want to see an addition to that so that there are players that feel like there is something there to be learned and specialize in if they want to.


Krazyguy75 wrote:If you are going to get into combat roles, I think that should be part of the perk system. I think that you should be getting very few perks, but those perks help you decide how the battle goes.

For example:
A travel domain perk that teleports a person to you: You are now the ambusher of the squad.
A war domain perk that sets a temporary spawn point: You are now the quartermaster
A fire perk that shoots a fireball that damages buildings: You are now the siege expert.
A temporary damage reduction perk from earth: You now are the tank.
A life perk that heals: You are now the healer.
etc.

So on. If we make people unable to easily get more than 1 perk, roles naturally form. That's a good integration of a perk system into combat.


You have by definition described something that does not naturally form roles - but rather set up specific tasks that people perform for specific purposes to meet specific roles. And not only that, but these are things that a player needs to spend no time at all learning about and thus will feel that much more arbitrary and effortless.

Minecraft already allows everyone to do everything without any problem. This is why "class systems" don't work. The only exception is through building, where knowledge of what you're doing and what tools you're using matters. The reason a player wouldn't be able to use Redstone isn't because they don't have enough "Redstone User" levels, or the "Redstone Man" perk, but because it's something they've never looked into. And if they did, they could probably learn more.
Rather than change that through arbitrary barriers of "Levels" and "Perks" to separate people into camps of "Can do this and can't do this" solely because of a minor title in the game, I'd much rather see organic additions that allow a form of expertise for players that want to branch out more and want to look more into other things.
I'm not saying I want to see a bunch of weird spells added to sword usage to make it this super high-intense epic thing. I don't think anyone here would want that. But I would definitely want to see more than just swords, doing more than just swinging forward for x hearts of damage, and more than everyone just doing the exact same thing on the battlefield of "Bring sword, armor, bow, arrows, food, splash potions of healing, flint and steel, pickaxe and/or shovel" every single time. In a fight, you jump swing for crit damage and push back when you need to eat or heal, and fire off arrows when you can (Edit: And you block with sword when you can). There are no additional options or strategies. Everyone always does exactly this, and the winner is determined by who does this more.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby Krazyguy75 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:53 pm

Well, I'm just gonna say it here: A system like that would make me avoid combat even more.

I don't want to have to choose between a bunch of weapons like that, because all that does is clutter the system with more options. In the long term, due to balance, you'd end up in the same situation: everyone would decide that 1-2 weapons are "the best" and all the other weapons would be discarded. That's how it always is, unless you do something like make each weapon significantly different (eg. TF2, or even more so: GW2). And if the weapons are that different... then it's basically just another system of perks, but passively applied based on weapon choice.

All your suggestions are adding to the tactical side of the battle. Personally, I think that the tactical side of the battle is the part that needs the least changes; it's the strategic side that will differentiate a skirmish from a war.

EDIT: Also, how is selecting perks any different than selecting a weapon choice? It's simply a choice that decides what capabilities you have; however, the perk system dictates both strategy and tactics, whereas weapon choice is purely tactical, and in the end will at best be a system of rock-paper-scissors, where weapon choice dictates the fight, or at worst be a system of defined meta, where you win or lose based on "is your team using X".
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby gigyas6 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:46 pm

A weapon choice would be different from a perk choice ideally by how it's used. There has been quite a bit of stuff to support this in the upcoming patch, but most of it isn't implemented in the game naturally.

A perk like a healing perk is something people are just going to pick you for because you have the healing perk and so you heal people. Not because you know anything more or have spent time learning something or actually developed anything beyond avatar strength. You, the player, might as well not even be involved in that conflict given literally anyone can do the exact same thing provided they have the perk.

Ideally, options that added to combat without changing the base of how combat works that add depth without complicating preexisting stuff would allow a player to matter as a player much more than as an avatar. I don't know how many times I've had to restate this, but it's a pretty important point.

If all that you're benefiting to a group is avatar strength, you don't really matter or input anything as a player.

The point of a system like that would be that if you didn't want to get too involved with it, you wouldn't have to. You know, like a large amount of mechanics that already exist inside of Minecraft but are almost completely nonexistent within combat. Like Redstone, Brewing, Efficient Farming, Mining Techniques, Aesthetical Building, Practical Building, and etc. etc., things that everyone is fully capable of doing, and everyone has some amount of knowledge in, but some people choose to focus more in on and dedicate time to. Even with the Combat Update, as it applies natively, the combat changes are not significant enough to provide anything outside strategies already in place. It's a system that's easy to learn and easy to master.

I'm saying that should be kept and held onto, and left perfectly in place, while also providing options for a difficult to learn difficult to master system on parallel with it.


Even if a meta did develop around it, I'd prefer one to evolve organically and through discovery than one being enforced through plugins and avatar strength and rigidly set.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby Krazyguy75 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:38 pm

Now I'm totally confused. You complained about how everybody does the same things in battle, then say you want it to be like building, where everyone has the same options? I mean, I sorta get that there is more to learn about building than there is to learn about fighting in minecraft, but I mean, the main difference is the learning time, and I'd rather not have to spend months to relearn how to fight, or I'll be bored quickly.

Fighting only occupies about 1% of the time in minecraft, even in N@W, so it should have about 1% of the learning time and complexity compared to building. Depth in a thing like that results in clutter, and increases the learning curve. The more complexity you put into a minor thing, the less people will use it. For example: Potions. Most people will use wiki articles to brew potions. If there was no wiki, I think most people would flat out ignore their existence.

Similarly, if N@W makes me learn advanced tactics to participate in war, I wouldn't want to participate in war, and I think most of the building-oriented people would agree. More complexity and depth is actually a deterrence.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby Sheez » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:56 pm

At work, need to read all of this still.

Let's just say that the weapon modifications are going to be an official minecraft patch. This is not us. We will continuously work to improve the balance of the weapon stats moving forward from that point. We will also plan to not roll out with a million choices.

First, we need to see the innate balance of the combat patch. It includes dual wielding and such. If their balance sucks, we will adjust. When all is said and done, we primarily want to make all of the currently existing tools viable. Primarily axe, sword and bow. Sure, we might add stuff as time goes but we want to be careful not to bog down minecraft. Look to Empirical as your admin saviour. He is the strongest advocate of keeping the vanilla of minecraft intact as possible. We plan to do that but there will be some extra features. We will always take feedback on any additional features and work with the community in molding an experience that they can enjoy.

There will be a beta. At least one. We hope that people will break everything we build so we can make it not suck. If something just does not work or is obtuse as fuck, we'll cut it down or out. No biggie. We love you guys. And ladies.
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