Season 3 (Input)

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Season 3 (Input)

Postby Sheez » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:53 am

Sheez and I are working on stuff. (Don't get excited, there is no ETA)

I would like to reach out to the community at this point because there is a heavy amount of traffic lately.

Let's have a pow wow.

Before we start, imagine a hypothetical for me. Let's pretend that Nations at War is basically in Season 2. There is a Nations plug-in and there is little else.

Season 3 at the core will have more than that, but for the purpose of this conversation I will keep it to basics.

So, you come to our Minecraft server to play with the NaW community. The server has three factions. The server has a Nations plug-in that allows for people to settle towns within the three factions. The server also has a War plug-in that allows war to be declared. When war is declared, plot protection drops for a certain amount of time and the server keeps track of block interactions. When the war ends, things return to their previous state and plot protection resumes. While at war, chests drop items from a pre-determined loot table, rather than letting people just take all of your things.

Obviously, a person cannot declare war all the time. So factions will have to work a bit for the ability to reap materials from their enemy's towns. Imagine that a system is in place that grants greater rewards to those that take greater risk. So 50 people attacking a small town that has no history of winning are not likely to get much.

So, humor me. Let's say that the server has a Nation/War/Chat plug-in.

What else would you want from these plug-ins? What other features would you want from ANY plug-in?

What are little or big things that you would like most out of Season 3? (Aside from it actually happening)

We've got stuff in the works and it will likely happen in a certain way but I would hate to miss a major common thread that we might have overlooked. After all, this is your community. I'll be active in this thread and willing to discuss.

(Teaching myself to code lately. Recently started taking ADD meds. It's nice to feel productive! Also, no, this project does not rely on myself or Sheez learning to code but we figure it could only help.)
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby Krazyguy75 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:36 am

Well, I want restrictions on who can found towns, otherwise you just end up with a bunch of one man nations that get together to fight wars.\

I also think that there has to be some punishment for losing wars. Otherwise, 2 nations could just abuse the system to get free loot from the other's chests.

I also think that there should be more rare/normally unobtainable loot (for contest rewards and such), so that people will trade more instead of just getting it themselves, but I don't know if that really needs to be programmed in.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby Sheez » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:18 am

Yeah, we don't want a lot of 2 man towns either. That has been discussed. Partly, having three factions will keep the problems of S2 at bay and limiting people from founding 100 different cities will avoid everyone and their grandmother from being a mayor.

Yeah, anti-war abuse has been taken into account. A solid concern however.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby _myst_ » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:31 am

First off, everything Krazyguy said, one-man nations are still arguably an issue on the Unoficial season server.


Anyway, here's an old PM I sent to Aculem on stuff I thought would be cool:

Spoiler:
Last season we had some great biomes to play with that you and the min's made. and it was fun. But I think we can encourage inter-nation warfare better if we make some major changes to the standard "grass>stone>bedrock" with the same ores and caves in every biomes. Say, in a desert biome, there isn't any wood ANYWHERE in the biome, forcing the players that live there to burn and pillage their neighbors in order to get this vital resource, and potentially add in a plugin mechanic that prevents trees from growing in their biome to keep 'em coming back for more. Or perhaps we have a nation similar to Air from S1, who could use snowballs as offensive weapons, but have the snowy biome be home to somebody else, hostile of course :winky: . We could even have a biomes with no stone, no iron ore, etc, to encourage raiding and pillaging between nations. I'm thinking that with all the blocks that have been added since S2, we have more than enough materials to make up for the different biome-related deficits, and that designing the map this way would also lead to a greater deal of building variety between the nations (i.e, those with access to stone make castles, while those with grounds made of softer materials (netherrack, clay, dirt, etc, live primarily underground and such, or perhaps use the ease of gathering resources by shovel to build massive towers and mounds that they inhabit. I'm not sure. WE have a lot of great builders here, but I think that having greater variety in actual biome composition would lead to some interesting building designs and battle-tactics.

This all naturally filters down into battle tactics, with certain nations not having access to X resource, they'd be forced to compensate by adapting their skillsets entirely (say, the nation that has very restricted access to iron naturally chooses a damage-boost atribute, or increased health, to compensate for their lack of mid-level armor/weapons. What do you think?


Events:

Sieges:
I'd like to see an instancing system where we can worldedit a given nations capitol and it's surrounding lands into an instance, and lay siege to the copy with no build protections. This let's nations wreak havoc on one another without the tears of having to rebuild all of their nice stuff afterwards. We can decide winners and losers with scoreboard command blocks.
Separately, I'd love to see some non-nation-affiliated structures that players can fight over, like Candlekeep from Season 1, and just let everyone have at each other in a nice big multi-team deathmatch.


Temples:

Stuff like the temple of Trials from Season 1, big obstacle/parkour courses for players from opposing nations to try to navigate, with rare items at the end.


Map stuff:

As stated above, heavily customized resource generation both above and below ground on a per-biome basis. This has been tested with positive results so far in the Unofficial season, and with some minor tweaks to the process I think could make a great gameplay mechanic for Season 3. Hell, if you guys can code it, take this a step farther and add weather effects (e.g., a mountain biome at high altitude will slowly wick away your health due to cold if you aren't wearing a leather breastplate/tunic for warmth, or the flip side in a desert: seek shade during daylight hours).
Also, a smaller map than Season 2 would be prudent, 5,000 blocks a side spread us out too much and made travel a bitch. The map for the Unofficial Season may be too small to some people's liking, but in my mind it's more in the ball park of where a map should be.

"Capture points": somewhat similar to sieges, except these zones would be protected towns with NPC's for trading with pvp enabled, allowing players to capture towns and trade with the NPC's to gain additional resources for their nation. These towns would be spaces along international borders, to facilitate constant warfare and fluid nation boundaries.

NPC's and Mobs: NPC traders of course, offering more diverse item sets than the default villagers, which I think still have a place. I'd love for npc's to have advanced behavior, like Aculem described in his "Clowns" design post a while back. I'd also like to have custom hostile mobs, maybe extra-giant slimes, or sea-serpents or something really gnarly (the Skeleton King in MythicMobs in the Unofficial season is a fun adversary for everyone), and possibly with larger health bars to make them more dangerous. PVE events with hostile mobs could be good too.

Yeah, that's what I've got for now.
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Now where is my Season 3?!?!?
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby Krazyguy75 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:52 am

My feedback (granted, I'm no admin): Myst, while some of those are interesting, some of those are too game changing. For example, the climate thing is interesting... but what does it do to improve the fundamentals of N@W? It really doesn't help nations, war, or building. It just changed minecraft, not N@W. Resource restriction is also dangerous, as it requires extremely delicate balance, and it's not easy to revise.

Also, you seem to have missed him saying that normal war operates a lot like your "siege" idea.



Things I agree with:

- Temples (or other challenges): These are fun and interesting. Would love more.

- Smaller Map Size: Definitely. The S2 Map discouraged any territory disputes, as it would take hours to cross the map.

- Capture Points: I'd love to see things along the lines of guild wars WvWvW mode, where you can take over points to gain resources and supplies.

- NPCs: I want NPCs, and I think the two most important types are as follows: Traders and Mercenaries. They don't really need to be that advanced in my opinion. Traders are important for giving nations alternate ways to attain resources, but I also think that they need restrictions on their use (like only the nation that controls the town they are in can use them; maybe tie it into the capture point idea). But the mercenaries are equally important in my mind: we need to be able to have more fighters if we really want it to feel like a war. Right now, even a 5v5 ends in a couple of minutes. If we could hire mercenaries for our wars, it would start to feel more like a war.

- Mobs: I think that boss mobs would be interesting, but rather than simply having them spawn, I think they should be more like WoW raids, where they are in a set location and respawn there, but a nation needs to get together to fight them and needs to come up with strategies. However, this would be the lowest priority.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby Ragandar » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:45 am

Honestly, most things that have been mentioned I can take or leave. There are other servers that already provide most of these elements. The reason I'm still here, and not there, however, is because of the community. I don't really mind what the server is going to be like, as long as I can play a functional game with awesome people.

That being said, the idea of capture points is probably the best one out there out of all the things mentioned so far. Most of the other things can be improved by virtue of this element. Have them provide specific aesthetic or bonus resources that are unique per capture point, and people now have something to fight over. It provides a reason to go out, and leave your protected walls. It also makes the map feel a lot smaller, because instead of having to go thousands of blocks to get to somebody's home terrain to fight them, chances are you will bump into people near that capture point nearby.

Keep in mind that the S2 map might have felt stupidly huge, but that is also because there were maybe 5 people on at any given point (at least ever since I was part of the community anyway). Had there been 100 people on all the time, it would have been a different story. Personally I liked the big map, since it gave people the option to choose from vastly differing terrain to build in. It's just a shame it never really had the playerbase that it was meant for.


The single most important thing that has to be addressed before anything else is probably providing people with a reason to log in. Events, wars, whatever, give people a reason to come back, even after they are burned out with the game for a while. War-servers need big populations to work. You need to be able to find people and kill them, which is not going to happen with a tiny playerbase, no matter how small you make the map. Because we are an elitist community at heart, we are never going to have the huge playerbase of players that are logging in intermittently, so we will need a core that logs in a lot instead. The problem with this is that there are going to be people that get burned out.

I already feel listless on the community server even now, because all I've been doing is building, essentially. The reason I still log in is because I want to stay invested in the server now that there's one back up and running again. I've been wanting to go out and kill people, but I have been very much hesitant to do so. That's because I don't want to risk pissing someone off by killing them, which could they might not come back afterwards. Especially with such a relatively small playerbase it makes a significant difference whether even a single person stops logging in. I might have had fun for 2 seconds in killing them, but there is also one less person to play with, that you might encounter outside your home.

You might think 'Good riddance, we don't need people that leave like that anyway!', but the reality is we do need them. With such a small playerbase every person matters. In fact, it might be an awesome person, whom you've just caught at an inopportune moment, which caused this person to overreact a little bit. Regardless of the reason, they are gone, which is going to make subsequent PvP and interactive fun even harder to obtain. That is why we need a way to have them go 'I wonder how things are going on the server,' or 'I still want to do this event that is coming up'. Turn it from a permanent leave to a temporary one.

That is what I believe to be important for the server anyway. /me shrugs.

-EDIT- Eh. That was longer than expected. I only intended to make a short post.

Spoiler:
Also, people that do want to PvP, feel free to come to Sablynth to try and kill us. We will defend ourselves. PvP is always on, and there are unprotected ways into the city. Just make sure you get rid of your ugly-ass noob-pillars that you use to get up either on your way out or during a subsequent visit. Thank you.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby gigyas6 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:43 pm

The only thing I could say likely couldn't be properly implemented via plugins without some major retooling. But I'll go ahead and say it anyway just chip it in.

My major interest in wargames has stemmed from three different core aspects: Grand Strategy, Battlefield Tactics, and Individual Merits.

The focus on S3 design so far, based on what we've seen (which I'm assuming is just a shadow of what you and Sheez have actually talked about, much less what's all been worked on collectively over time), is to bring more of that grand strategy to fruition. Working more on the inner-workings of groups, and how they interact with others. The multi-faction system alone adds a large portion to this with inner-faction trading and the like.

Players themselves can organize their own battalions and such, and the chat systems and some plugins seem to support this as well. This allows tactics to work well into minecraft naturally, and players executing battlefield tactics are going to find themselves fighting better than players simply massed together. Moreso than other games, I'd imagine, given that zerging is often not a viable tactic in minecraft.

The ultimate problem left, then, is the individual soldier. There's not terribly much skill involved in the combat of minecraft - and more importantly, there's not really any variety. You're going to get a diamond sword, you're going to flash it out with the best damage enchantments - normally fire and sharpness - and you're going to jump attack while blocking and eating. Yes, this does involve some amount of timing, and there is a clear difference to be seen between two different players. But there's no variations on this strategy pretty much whatsoever, no reason not to just blast on the best thing that everyone's going to use, and the combat really just boils down to "left click better than your opponent can". Even things like dodging and knock-backs don't mean as much nowadays given how bows and potions have changed, so removing yourself from close-quarters doesn't help you too much.
This is something I'm really not sure how to rectify properly or through plugins. I think this is just a flaw of Minecraft in general, and one that isn't easily fixed without heavy modding. But I feel preparing for war is a lot less interesting when soldiers don't have to be trained and everyone's just doing the same thing on the battlefield. There's not even really any roles or anything to separate a soldier from their troop - it's not even like you can be a combat medic or something.
At the very least, something would be better than nothing.



Outside of that, the only other thing I can think of would be trade and profession guilds. Something that could provide some sort of real benefit for a town/nation/faction whether through some sort of meta bonus, economic benefit, or something else altogether that's maybe just fun. Rather than this be something for friends to get together in, limit people joining to not be from the same town, or at least not be something that exists solely for a single town - something to encourage people to interact with others outside their clicks, which we oh-so-often seem to fall into.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby charmisokay » Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:29 pm

I just want you guys on the server.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby Sheez » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:21 pm

At work so this is just a quick blurb for now.

Capture points are wanted on our end. It keeps people out in the world. Also, perks of sorts for nations and players to unlock are also a thing we want.

A really key thing for us is the eventual upcoming patch. We don't need it to start but when it releases we can alter more parameters on weapons. This means that we can easily create more weapon styles and unique loot. Overall, combat will still be fairly basic, but it will help us to easily create varying combat roles.
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Re: Season 3 (Input)

Postby cgeyl » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:16 am

I peronally don't want the combat mechanisms too different from standard survival, too many layers of complexity just make combat a bit tedious and clusterfucky. It shoud also be accessible to newer players since I hated that atherys thing where you had to grind like fuck to be any use in combat.

Also I think there should be more global fora accessible to everyone, make as many of the mechanics easily available to members of hiatus groups so that members of dead towns aren't forced to leave themselves.

Generally I think we should desperately avoid making the game's mechanics only properly accessible to either well organised groups who schedule their play times, or ruling councils.
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